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TONY DAVEY: Hi there, Em, How's things?

EMILY KIM: Hi, I'm doing very well, thank you.

TONY DAVEY: Excellent. So welcome back to Public Speaking Week. Normally, as you know, we're putting out debating videos every week for secondary school kids. But I thought because the Plain English Speaking Award was now officially up and running, and you can enter online, and we're going to hopefully start seeing speeches soon, that we would dedicate a whole week to public speaking tips and advice and watching old speeches, practicing impromptus as well later. So yeah, it's Public Speaking Week. It's kind of like Shark Week, but much less thrilling, and Mick Fanning won't punch anyone--

EMILY KIM: What do you mean? Public speaking is thrilling.

TONY DAVEY: Public speaking is thrilling. That's a good point.

EMILY KIM: Get's the blood pumping.

TONY DAVEY: Alright, so the first thing we're going to do this week is just have a chat with you and me about you know, some of the things we think make a really good public speech, whether it be performance or the stuff you put in the speech. But first of all, I should get you to say hello. Tell us a little bit about yourself and your public speaking credentials, Emily.

EMILY KIM: Sure, so hi, everyone. I am Emily. I was in high school and I graduated in 2017, and I did the Plain English Speaking Award when I was in Year 11 and in Year 12. In Year 11, I made it to the state final, and then I loved it so much I wanted to do it again. So I did it again in Year 12, and then I won the state final. And then I got to go to nationals where I was also lucky enough to win. And then I travelled to London to compete in the International Public Speaking Competition the next year. So that's my public speaking journey myself. I've since then adjudicated a lot of The Arts Unit's public speaking competitions, like I've adjudicated Plain English state finals, but also Legacy and the Multicultural Speaking Awards. So I've seen a lot of public speaking, and I've also done a lot of it myself.

TONY DAVEY: Yeah, that's about right. Remember though, we're not going to get Emily to watch her Plain English Speaking Awards speeches at any point this week. But you can. All of those all Plain English Speaking Award finals are online, and they're super easy to find.

Alright, so we should get into a chat about what makes a good public speech. We're going to start I think, today by very quickly talking about manner for a little while, so just like what you should look and sound like when you're giving the speech. The first thing that I wanted to talk about was just making sure that you're really natural and conversational. I guess later on, we'll talk about how it's OK to have different styles when you're a public speaker. But when we say different styles, I don't think any adjudicator ever meant anything other than you know, you could be a funny person or a serious person. You could be really engaging or really analytical. Like, those things are OK. But no one ever meant that it's OK to be you know, stuffy or overacting, that like one of the choices you have is to be overly dramatic or annoying. So we really do want someone conversational. Is that about right, Em?

EMILY KIM: Yeah, I definitely agree. So I think this definitely isn't a drama performance or a theatrical performance. So you should avoid being too overdramatic. I think it's obviously good to, you know, do things like project your voice, enunciate, and slow down, which are all things that we do advise in public speaking and are also maybe things you would do in a drama performance. But I think the tone you should be going for is, imagine that you're speaking to a friend that you know pretty well, maybe not like your best friend in the world who you would use the most casual speech ever with, but talking to a friend you know decently well, except they're sitting on the other side of the room. So that would obviously naturally require you to speak louder, to slow down, to clarify your words. But your tone would ultimately still be pretty friendly and approachable. So I think that's the tone you should be aiming for.

TONY DAVEY: Yeah, and I think that's perfect. Genuinely, don't be a stuffed shirt. Be approachable and friendly, and don't be overly dramatic. And I think that's great. So I thought the next thing we might talk about then is very briefly, the kinds of structures that work for public speaking writing. So this isn't really about the stuff you say. It's more about a way to structure the stuff you say and keep it moving. Do you have-- yeah, do you have any thought-- I think you've got a structure that you tend to coach people.

EMILY KIM: Yeah, so I have noticed over time that my speeches do tend to follow a surprisingly rigid structure. Which I say surprising, because it's not something I've often thought about very consciously or explicitly. So if you also find that that's a better way to go through the speech writing process for you to just see what naturally comes out, like, that's also obviously totally fine. We're not ticking off boxes when we're adjudicating to say they've followed this exact structure that I like or anything.

But I've just noticed post hoc, that the structure I tend to follow looks something like this. So I think this structure occurs because the mentality I take when I approach the structure of my speech is to consider that you're kind of buying the audience's time. So the reason I say that is because in everyday life, it's not normal that you would have to sit and listen to someone just talk at you for eight minutes at a time, right? In a conversation, it's not usually one person going on for eight minutes and then the other person just sitting there and listening, right?

So most people aren't really geared to necessarily be loyal to you and pay you all that attention for the whole time no matter what you say. So I always think, OK, I'm buying the audience's time, maybe like a minute at a time or something like that. And if they like the minute that I just gave them, then they'll be like, OK, I'll give you another minute. And I'll give you another minute after that. And that's how I go through the eight minutes. And that has led me to vary up the different portions of my speech when it kind of gets to about time when the audience would want to be hearing something maybe a bit different.

So I start with an introduction. And I think Tony also kind of often gives similar advice on intros that something like a casual anecdote or like a friendly joke or something like that can work really well for an introduction. And that's because this is when you're first buying the audience's time, and you want them to feel comfortable and not like you're lecturing at them from the get go, just by like dumping this huge issue on them and being like, why don't you know about this, you're dumb. So you want to seem friendly and approachable and like, they can settle into their seats and just listen to you comfortably.

After that introduction, I then do what I call the first info dump. And I say info dump, but you shouldn't just like rattle off like a Wikipedia page, obviously. By info dump I just mean this is a part where your maybe first explaining the issue that you're bringing to the table. So I hope it's OK, Tony, for me to use examples from my Plain English speech.

But, so I gave a speech about the stigmatisation of menstruation. So in my introduction, I made a joke about how getting your period when you were out in public or wearing white pants or whatever is scarier than any horror movie. And then I move on to my info dump where I actually clarify OK, OK, now, I made that joke. But here's what I'm going to be talking about today. And I kind of explain that kind of stigma, what it looks like, and how early we are taught to kind of be afraid or disgusted by things like periods. And I do that while I've got the audience's attention. But again, if this section goes on like way too long, and that's how your whole speech is, then obviously the audience will disengage.

So I like to intersperse my info dumps with what I call emotional moments. So those are things like maybe additional anecdotes or examples. So for me, this is where I inserted an anecdote about a woman who was homeless and who had to use random products that she found on the street as sanitary products because they were too expensive, and she otherwise would not be able to afford food. So that's obviously a compelling anecdote that's really illustrative of the kind of point I'm making. So I would insert that after I've given a bit of an info dump so the audience does not, you know, feel like this is too impersonal or too unattached from them now.

And I basically do that sort of twice. So I go info dump and emotional moment. Then I maybe do another info dump where I maybe bring in things like more statistics, go in more detail about the root causes of this issue and do some heavier analysis. And then I have another emotional moment where I would usually encounter the peak of my speech, you know, with something like a really powerful quote or a really powerful insight that you're bringing to the table, which is like the 100% point of your speech in terms of the emotional ride.

And then I like to have a call to action while I've, while I'm still kind of riding the high of that emotional peak, because that's when people are most engaged and most listening. So you would bring in a call to action that is not just saying, you know, you should think about this issue or you should just try to vote in a way that helps this issue. You know, give the audience something that they can actually feel like they can go out and do, because they want to. You've just made them feel like this is so important and they're listening to you. So you can give them some specific things you think would help this issue.

And then I would then just go straight into my conclusion, which you know, you can do something casual or funny again. I ended my speech with a joke, because my speech was pretty heavy. But you can also end with basically anything that you want to be the audience's last memory of you, essentially.

So that's what I've just noticed that my speech can be chunked down into. Again, you should not treat this like a checklist. The whole speech needs to flow from one part to another. So it's also sometimes harmful if you treat it too much like individual sections. But that's generally the path that I take.

TONY DAVEY: Yeah, that's fascinating. Yup, never thought about it that way before. So it's a pretty flexible way of looking at speech writing, right?

EMILY KIM: Yes, very, very flexible.

TONY DAVEY: It sort of fits into this what I would normally say, just roughly anyway. So I think if I was coaching how to write a public speech, certainly if you had limited time, and you wanted to structure it quickly, nowadays I would say I prefer like a three-act structure. So there are going to be three main chunks in the middle of the speech. And then around that, there's going to be some kind of book ending structure.

There's probably going to be a personal anecdote or a joke that opens the speech and teases what's going to come. And then at the ending, I super like for that joke or anecdote or whatever it was to be revisited, so that it looks the same as at the beginning, but it's a little bit different now. So that kind of bookend exists around a three-act structure.

So I've got roughly three chunks in the middle. And I have a couple of different ways that I would normally coach people to do it. You can have like, an opening chunk that is just a little bit like Em's info dump. It's the context that you need and the stuff you need to know to understand kind of where the speech is going. And then an act that is deeper analysis, maybe a deep dive on one specific example and hopefully draws a slightly different message. And then a third act that is that call to action, here's what I want you to go and do about this kind of thing that Em was talking about as well.

I think that works. I also think it works to have just the bookends. And then inside of them, act one, the personal level, so just talking about whatever it is your theme is and whatever your message is and viewing it through like a personal lens. It's about you or your family or your school. And then in act two, broadening it out with a different message that's really important. It's not the same message. And now, you're on like, the level of your country or your city or something like that.

And then still an act three where you are doing that call to action. And like Em said, it's really important. It's like a detailed call to action. You can't just be like, get out there and do this or like, write a letter to your local member. I think it's really important you spend a proper amount of time on telling people the kinds of changes they might make to their own lives to kind of adapt to what you've taught them in the speech.

So I think if you look at Em's with the kind of info dump, emotional moment, info dump, emotional moment-- those kind of are a little bit like the first two acts in some ways. So they sort of fit together, although Em's is a little bit more flexible. You might want to go with it. But hopefully that helps a little bit with your structure when you're writing the speech.

The last thing I thought we should do is just chat through the kinds of things you should be talking about, like what should be in the content. And so, I think Em, you're going to lead us off.

EMILY KIM: Yeah, so my general rule of thumb is the age-old advice of write what you know definitely stands in speech writing. But as I think it stands in every other kind of field that it's applied to, here as well, you shouldn't just write about anything that you know. So you shouldn't just write about you know, your favourite cake recipe or just what you did on the weekend.

You should write about something you know, but that you're always curious to know more about, because it's something that intellectually fascinates you, that you're passionate about, that you think is an issue, that is ever changing or developing or continues to bring new information to light or things like that.

So again, with my speech, stigmatisation around menstruation, that was something that I did already know about, which is why I chose to give a speech on it. I'd wanted to do that for a long time.

But it was also something that I wanted to know more about. So I knew I would enjoy the process of researching that topic, that I wouldn't be faking it when I said in my speech, look, guys, this is really important. And here's what you need to know.

So yes, do write what you know if you can. Don't force yourself to talk about something just because you think it's what the adjudicators might want to hear. Believe me when I say we never go into the room saying, you know, I hope to hear a speech about this thing today. We just are willing to hear whatever you'll give us. So you should prioritise what you think interests you and what you're curious about.

TONY DAVEY: Yeah, that's obviously excellent opening advice. So then I think the next thing to think about, that I always tell kids after speeches, is to try to think of your speech as being reasonably balanced. So that doesn't mean you can't have extreme views. In fact, you probably should. They'll probably be more interesting.

But it just means that a speech that is entirely funny is not particularly successful. So it's just a standup comedy act. But also, a speech that's all seriousness and you know, really, really scary-- that's not particularly helpful either. It's also true that a speech that is all facts isn't that exciting. That's just a news report.

And a speech it is all analysis and no facts is kind of unhelpful either. The same way a speech about yourself that goes eight minutes, a really personal speech might be engaging. But at the end of it, no one's going to learn a lesson, because they're like, well, I'm not you. That doesn't really apply to me. So you need equally a broader political chunk where you talk about that broader issue.

So I think that while this isn't always true, and there are ways to have really imbalanced speeches that strike people and amaze them, I just think that generally speaking, having a speech that is balanced between humour and seriousness, fact and analysis, and then spends roughly an equal amount of time on personal and political stuff-- not equal, but at least dedicate some time to each of those things-- I think that's a sign of pretty good speech writing. So that's something to keep in mind for mine. I suppose that's my first step. And, Em, you've got a second tip?

EMILY KIM: Yeah, so I tend to hear a lot of students come to me saying things like, you know, I've been told that you shouldn't give a speech on for instance, let's just say feminism or on climate change, because too many people talk about those things-- or you know, racism or whatever. And I think my response is always the same, which is there is no big topic chunk that is I think out of bounds for the reason that too many people have talked about it, because the thing that is important is not the broader topic, but the take that you give on it, so the specific perspective that you give us on it.

So yes, maybe you shouldn't give a speech about like feminism broadly and why feminism is good. But there are so many I think, literally infinite things you can talk about under feminism, like my speech is I guess, a feminist speech. But no one would say oh, you shouldn't give a speech on menstruation, because everyone speaks about that.

So it's just about the unique perspective, or that angle that you take. Like, think of it as like a soccer ball with all the different sides. Like, you can just pick one of those and you can still give a unique speech. And that's true of things like you know climate change, for instance.

I've heard many people give very unique speeches on climate change or on racism. So yeah, don't listen to advice that any of those big topic areas should be like totally avoided or are out of the question. Because as long as you have something interesting to say about that topic, you can definitely still explore it.

TONY DAVEY: Yeah, for sure. That is exactly right. It's not about the uniqueness of the topic. It's about the uniqueness of your take on the topic.

I mean, I think with that in mind, it's worth adding that in some instances, the more extreme that take is, or the more unexpected, certainly the more counterintuitive it is, the more likely you are at least to catch everyone's attention. So having a take that is maybe the opposite of what people often think and say and are expecting, I think that can work sometimes. Not always, obviously, but that's something to keep in mind.

I remember, for instance, there was a period where everyone was talking about how bad the internet and devices were as if they were all like 80-year-old, grey-haired people. And the kids who got up and said my speech-- like, my take on the internet is going to be here's how it's super useful and people should stop blaming young people-- those people really stood out. So trying to find that counter take is probably good advice as well.

So the other thing that I wanted to say about this was just to make sure the speech, as you're writing that content keeps moving along. What I mean by that, is that you don't want to get stuck in one example that kind of has one message and you explore it for about a minute. And then there's another example you've fallen in love with as well. So you stick on it for a minute as well.

But if you're honest and look back, both of them were doing the same message the whole time.

So certainly with younger speeches-- so I'm lucky enough to be in charge of the Multicultural Perspectives Public Speaking Competition, which is for like, kids in Years 3 to 6, and it's about multiculturalism-- it's really common to get like a great one-minute chunk on something like Martin Luther King and what we can learn.

But then it's really common for that to be backed up by a one-minute chunk on Nelson Mandela. And you kind of learn the same message about how one person can make a difference and how important struggles against racism are. So just because you love two examples, you're often going to have to pick one.

And I think even if it's not about examples, I think the broader message is as you move through those chunks of the speech, whether they be Em's one minute of this, one minute of that, or that broader three-act structure, you need to make sure that each one of those chunks has a different message that's kind of building on the message before. So your speech will have an overall message. But hopefully, each one of those chunks has a different kind of mini message that means the speech is never just that and then that again and then that for a third time.

So it's always teaching you something new. And I think that's really important. It needs a direction. Don't get caught doing the same work twice during the speech. I guess, that's what I'm trying to say, yeah.

EMILY KIM: Yeah, I agree with that. That's definitely true.

TONY DAVEY: I don't think there's anything else. I think that's the combined wisdom that we have on what makes a good public speech.

So best of luck with recording those speeches and getting them in. Later in the year, by the way, the Legacy Junior Public Speaking Competition I'm told will run as well. So if you're a younger person watching this, you've got time to work on those speeches for ages, and then record a video and send it in. We'll be in touch with your teacher soon.

But, yeah, hopefully that helps a little bit. Massive thanks to Em for helping us out with this and lending her expertise.

EMILY KIM: Good luck, everyone.